(We are very fortunate today to present a guest interview originally conducted in Polish by The Goat Tavern and translated by them into English. It is a rare and relentlessly interesting discussion with the two members of the fascinating Polish band Wędrowcy~Tułacze~Zbiegi, a band that has now come to an end — sadly for us and many other fascinated listeners.)
The Polish metal scene is full of wonders. Sometimes, the deeper you dig the more treasure you can find. You don’t have to look far, however, to find bands like Furia, Odraza, Gruzja or Totenmesse. These bands, well-established in the underground, feature musicians who often want to express themselves in a different field.
On one sunny May afternoon, I sat down with Sars and Stawrogin and talked about their project, Wędrowcy~Tułacze~Zbiegi, into which they’ve been putting their hearts for years. Now, after they decided to call it a day, it was time to reflect a bit on the past and try to introduce this incredibly fascinating musical creation to a broader audience.
Hi guys! Thanks that you found the time to speak to me. I think I’d like to start with possibly the hardest question: How would you describe WTZ to a non-Polish listener that never encountered your music before? Do you think that knowing Polish reality and the language helps with understanding WTZ or does it not matter at all?
Stawrogin: It’s a difficult question because we would have to put ourselves in the shoes of the audience from outside. If you ask what WTZ is for me, it’s first and foremost the music of intuition. That’s how I perceive it.
Sars: I think that what Stawrogin said makes sense because yes, knowing our context may actually help to understand the music but it is a matter of intuition. This may be the element that, for someone that doesn’t know the context, will be absorbing. When I had a chance to speak to people from abroad who have already heard WTZ, the music resonated with something in their souls. So, the context is not necessary, worst case the listener won’t understand anything (laughs).
Maybe it just works the same as when we listen to, let’s say, Swedish or Norwegian music and we can’t necessarily understand the language, but we feel the music through what we hear.
Sars: Like we give ourselves the context of, for example, Norway. When I was in Norway just now, I was on the bus to the airport and I was thinking about it. How different it was for them comparing to us in the nineties. Speaking about black metal, you can say that our black metal bases on a completely different cultural background. We had some imagination about them but we made our own context in our heads. So, when someone from outside comes and listens to WTZ, he will have his own understanding of Poland.
And he will write his own stories because I think that’s how it works with the music when we don’t understand the language.
Stawrogin: And sometimes that imagination can be surprisingly accurate. When I was in Bergen and I saw the city myself, I felt some sort of satisfaction that my own projection of Norwegian music and the context that I created, at least on the level of nature, lighting, and how things worked there, correlated with the reality.
Sars: It looks like if someone from abroad doesn’t know WTZ and doesn’t have any specific understanding about Poland, he needs to google ‘’Świętochłowice’’ and only then start listening to the music! (laughs)
Stawrogin: And then travel to Świętochłowice and go to Lipiny, drive around those streets in an expensive car so that his wheels get stolen! (laughs). And then he’ll have all that satisfaction of having a car with no wheels, but having the conviction that everything is just right — just the way he imagined it.
It was a friend of mine, I think, who came up with this term ‘’Polish Noir’’ that seems to merge your whole style into one. What do you think about this term? Does it make any sense to you?
Sars: It’s a good term to make an international career! But it sucks we just finished with the band. (laughs)
It’s been 15 years since you started, including Duszę Wypuścił, the previous incarnation of WTZ, and now, as you say, the journey has come to an end. How would you summarize this journey? What’s been mostly engraved in your memory?
Stawrogin: Those are very difficult questions.
Sars: I don’t know about Stawrogin but in my head I have now started shaping everything that’s been happening with the band. My reflections are different now to what they were when it was all happening because it was very chaotic and coincidental. Now it turns out that idea was always clearly there.
For me, one of the most important moments was when I lived in the flat in Katowice, at Wita Stwosza. We then had rehearsals with MasseMord in Katowice. Stawrogin and Priest used to come to those rehearsals as Stawrogin was already playing in MasseMord and, because it was always over the weekends, they used to stay over in my flat. It was some older woman’s flat who moved out and left everything as it was. When I think about WTZ I think about this flat, those old and smoke-covered curtains and yellowish walls, those blankets that smelled of 1945.
You have nicely described the WTZ style – smelly old curtains, yellowish walls. It all fits perfectly.
Sars: Yes, so maybe that’s why it’s got stuck in my head, but it was only a short period. Many more things happened afterwards.
Stawrogin: Actually, I think that was the period before any music was being made. It was more like a social time.
Sars: I think only ‘’Światu Jest Wszystko Jedno’’ was made in that time.
Stawrogin: Oh yes, that’s correct. I remember when I used to visit Sars during that time, there was this little bed and there was some old orthodox funerary shroud on the wall. I usually slept there drunk and always woke up with this shroud above my head.
But you asked about the specific moment and I remember one thing related to WTZ. It was 2020, we were working on Berliner Vulkan’ and it was just before Covid. I was about to leave Kraków for a few months and I was supposed to submit my vocals to all the tracks and I only had one day, so I was stressing out. But I had a very effective evening and did the vocals to the whole album in one go. This never happens to me, I usually overthink things and it takes a long time of preparations for me to do the vocals. When the album was ready, I was very surprised how well it worked out. That’s my specific moment that I remember most.
I wanted to talk to you about Droga do Domu, your latest album. Last year you shared the sad news that WTZ has come to an end and that this would be your final album. Droga do Domu’ was a highly-anticipated album. It got great reviews and your fans are rather happy with such a “goodbye”. What are your personal reflections about the album? Are you satisfied with what you achieved?
Stawrogin: Yes, I’m very happy! From the very beginning when the material was being done, I had a lot of satisfaction and I was really excited that we were doing it. Every little piece of the whole jigsaw put together and hearing the first effects was extraordinary. There were a lot of threads that were eventually combined in a way I really liked and I never heard anything like it before in the music that I like. That type of form marriage. And that impression has remained with me.
Sars: I’m not sure how to say that… I generally agree with Stawrogin. But it took us a very long time to complete the album. We kept coming back to it and each return has cost me a lot of energy and I almost had to force myself to continue working on it. Only when Stawrogin came to record the guitars, the album started shaping up into something bizarrely wonderful. We still had to finish a lot of things but we then met with Konstanty from Mag in Kraków to do his parts of the vocals and, eventually, I was extremely happy! I can’t imagine a better ending.
It was not intentional but we gathered a lot of things from the past. It was not supposed to be a personal collage. It worked out like this probably because we wanted to musically express ourselves in a number of ways. The other thing is that we talked about the end but I don’t really perceive it like this. It’s not like we moved far apart from each other. Nothing has really changed. Of course, some things have been rearranged in our heads and I have a problem to come back to certain things but it’s just yet another change.
You were just saying about gathering things from the past. Droga do Domu is an album that merges your style into one compact thing. It’s a short album but you can find a lot there – your typical feistiness mixed with some electronic music but also traces of black metal. I’m just wondering about one thing: The album was preceded by a single, “Agapa”, which had a completely different vibe, closer to the synth-pop that we could hear on Berliner Vulkan or, to some extent on Trzy Siostry. Is such disorientation of the listener a deliberate device or a natural consequence of diverse musical ideas?
Sars: Yes and yes. The song comes from 2020 and was done after we released Berliner Vulkan. It was somehow put aside. And then, at some point, we came up with an idea to release this track before Droga do Domu. We already knew what the album would be like and we wanted to play a little trick. It was a cool track so it would be a shame not to do anything with it. We wanted to mix things up in our style.
Your vocals, Stawrogin, perfectly harmonize with Konstanty, who was a great addition to the track and then to the whole Droga do Domu. It’s a shame this track didn’t appear on Berliner Vulkan but it worked out really cool with the trick. A lot of people were surprised.
Stawrogin: Now, in the era of digital distribution, we are just left with a cool single that is not available on any physical release.
In regards to this disorientation, intentional or unintentional, that sort of measures can be heard in your main bands (mainly Furia, Odraza, Gruzja) you co-create. Do those bands have any influence on your WTZ work or is it completely separate space for you, sort of a getaway from metal?
Sars: They don’t have a direct influence but the people, the experience, and the things we did with those bands have got some indirect importance to WTZ.
Stawrogin: I would totally agree with Sars on this. When composing material for this or that band, the important thing is the total experience, and each creative process is a result of work with other bands. The fact that we have other projects lets us skilfully sort out different ideas. If, for example, we were sitting and working on the material for Droga do Domu and I was sitting and playing a riff, I instantly knew if it was going to be relevant for WTZ. So, I think this influence is connected to the ability to sift through your ideas and concepts as well as aligning methods with your goals. I don’t know if you understand what I’m trying to say…
It is actually well said and I totally understand it. If you look at the WTZ catalogue, it’s hugely diversified. When it comes to ideas and drawing inspiration from different places, your music seems to have totally different influences in all of its corners. What is the reason for this disparity? Do you obtain any ideas from what you personally listen to or does the music arise on its own?
Sars: It absolutely comes from what I or we listen to. With each album, something was already resounding in my head. I remember the first riff on “Korpus Czechosłowacki” was done under the influence of Queens of the Stone Age. Our music has got nothing to do with them and it usually worked out for us that any attempt to create something similar to anything was giving us a very different result, maybe as a consequence of different musical abilities.
Have you got any new albums that gave you goosebumps recently?
Sars: The Polish band Kryształ has really impressed me a lot recently. And some time ago I really liked the second album from Mag. This was what gave us idea to cooperate with Konstanty on the latest WTZ album. There is just so much good Polish music out there!
Stawrogin: I’m just looking at my saved albums on Spotify. I’ll be honest, nothing has really given me goosebumps recently. But I’ve just found a couple of metal albums that impressed me a lot. First one is the Norwegian Gryla, who released a great album. It’s done by one 18-year-old guy who has got a photo on Metal-Archives that, comparing to the quality of music, seems to be some sort of provocation (laughs). But the guy has done a really solid album!
The other thing was the latest Wulkanaz album, a really creative one. Also, I really liked the latest one from Imperial Triumphant. It’s the first album from them I totally get in its entirety. I really feel this atmosphere they’re trying to create. No complaints there!
Looking at your entire music catalogue, I must admit that the album that it was most difficult for me to come to like was Futurista. It’s a rather less approachable or feisty album compared to other ones but it’s got its own magic which can eventually do its work. What was the thought behind this album?
Sars: I had this in my head that I wanted to repeat what I’ve done with Kiedy Deszcz Zaczął Padać Na Zawsze? and do this album in a way I didn’t dare back then. Something was missing there. This album was meant to be boring and unentertaining from the start.
I remember how I was explaining this concept to Stawrogin. It’s like you used to go to church as a kid and sit there bored for an hour but you left and knew that something had happened there. Something had some meaning there but you didn’t necessarily want to come back there.
We took a lot of shortcuts with Futurista. We had the same drummer who did Droga do Domu and he recorded the drums the way he saw them, not in a studio but just using one microphone at the rehearsal place. Paweł, who recorded the vocals, also had a completely different understanding of music. I am totally aware that this album is difficult, unentertaining, or maybe even unattractive but I still think that it can leave something within the listener.
I don’t know if you know the Furze album, Necromanzee Cogent. It’s over an hour long and I have similar feelings about this album. There are fantastic riffs and great songs but when you listen to it as a whole, you really start fidgeting towards its end wishing it was over. But I feel really good after listening, I feel it’s worth the effort because something stays within you.
Stawrogin: My approach to music, at least to vocals, is all about correctness. I mean, my mindset is very songwriter-like. I have a bit of a complex about being a vocalist who sings cleanly because I don’t consider myself someone who does it particularly well. Ever since the beginning when clean vocals were a thing in WTZ, I treated it as a testing ground for my vocals and I have learned a lot.
So, with my mindset, when I first heard Paweł’s vocals, I went crazy. I saw the lyrics that were prepared by Dominik Gac and it didn’t match the vocals at all. It was all a bloody hotchpotch! I said to Sars: ‘’Mate, it’s not precise!’’ My first thought was that I wanted to give this a bit of a singer’s touch. It wasn’t material that particularly resonated with me when we were recording it.
However, around a year ago I was listening to Futurista in the car and I was totally shocked and happy with this material. It’s such a great collection of ideas that border on a certain kind of madness. It is like a report from a post-apocalyptic church built in Beskid Niski or Podlasie in a forest where people meet and perform some rituals. Generally, there are rough edges and inconsistencies, but there’s also something in it that you won’t find anywhere else. Since that time, I went back to this album maybe once and I had the same feeling that stayed with me for a while. A feeling that goes beyond entertainment.
One of my favourite elements of WTZ is your singing, Stawrogin. It always tells some sort of story and it blends with the music very well. Maybe it’s not technically perfect but it’s all about emotions that contribute to the general feeling so much. Can you remember the moment when it came about that you decided to sing that way, so different to your usual screaming in Odraza or Gruzja?
Stawrogin: Back in high school, when I was learning to sing, I was usually working with the people I shared inspiration with. This resulted in a situation so that when I got a song that was aesthetically similar to, for example, A Perfect Circle, I was always trying to emulate Keenan. This stayed with me until the times of WTZ because it was such a strange piece of music.
I sing one song on Kiedy Deszcz… and when I got this song, I totally didn’t know how to approach it. So, I started to sing naturally. There is always a form of borrowed expression, I don’t know, from Krzysztof Krawczyk or generally Polish pop music from the last three or four decades. But I didn’t want to play with those more grounded phrases that are meant to say something. This is my natural voice that I wanted to use and I first had a chance to do so thanks to WTZ because this music was not similar to anything.
So, I think the first crucial moment was our first full-length album, Światu Jest Wszystko Jedno, no emulation there, that’s how I sing.
Sars, we know that WTZ has been born of your earlier project, Duszę Wypuścił. When did you decide to divide those two stages? What made you start, basically, from scratch with WTZ?
Sars: We had all the tracks recorded for Kiedy Deszcz… but the three female vocalists we had backed out of recording music with me. Then I thought about trying this with my mates. Kamil from Xaos Oblivion has come forward. Stawrogin has mentioned that he sang. We all also had a strong pack with Robert von Ritter, who lived in Gliwice then. Stawrogin had invited Limbo, who later sang in Gruzja. I had all the material done for another album but all the clashes and discords made me want to call it something else than Duszę Wypuścił.
Last month, Devoted Art Propaganda, your label, rereleased the first WTZ album on LP and released the latest albums on CD. Your physical releases are more of a treat for collectors and aren’t produced in large quantities. Some of the original copies of earlier albums, if they’re even available, can reach hefty prices on Discogs. How much importance do you place on physical releases? Are you collectors yourselves?
Stawrogin: I go through phases of collecting vinyl, it’s not a huge amount. Usually, it’s albums that are important to me. But I think the first part of the question is more challenging. Sars?
Sars: I place a huge importance on physical releases because of the times with Duszę Wypuścił, when I used to make all the artwork myself. It’s a part that fills out the music. When I was a kid, I would buy a cassette and sit down with the insert and the reception of the music was so different! It’s an important part, I think, because the visual side also represents what we’re trying to say. When you have a physical copy in your hand, only then do you have a full package. If you just play it on Spotify, you lose some percentage of the music’s perception.
Have you maybe thought with Devoted Art Propaganda about some “goodbye” box set? Or is it not Your thing?
Sars: The ‘’goodbye’’ releases are all those re-editions that we’re doing. There was the first series now and there will be three more until the end of 2026.
Have you ever considered performing live as WTZ? How do you think this formula could work for the band that would go on a tour?
Sars: We always talked about this with Stawrogin. I think I was always the brakeman there; Stawrogin would probably be ready to bring his energy to this. But we always lacked the general concept of how this would look like.
Moreover, pragmatism prevailed because our experience with the other bands showed that in order to make something happen successfully, you have to work on it for a long time. We would have to organize the people to play with us. Unless we played Berliner Vulkan from the laptop. And of course, rehearsals. Every week for 6 months. It was all about our schedules. We have everyday jobs. Stawrogin has got Odraza, Gruzja, Totenmesse. I also have a lot of things to play, so we just couldn’t make it.
Besides, I reckon I don’t feel the need for this music to be performed live. WTZ was never a band. It was always a form of autotherapy and great fun. That’s why there was never enough determination to push it.
I think that it could be difficult to organize from the technical point of view, there is just so much in this music.
Stawrogin: By necessity, the band that would enter the rehearsal room, before actually practicing the material, would first have to compose it for the instruments. Part of the material is electronic, some parts are with live instruments, so you’d have to find a way to combine these together. For me, that would be one of the conditions for WTZ to play live. But it would be incredibly time-consuming.
I think a lot of people will honestly miss WTZ but to finish this conversation off, I’d like to ask you if it’s too early to talk about a possible continuation in a different form. Is there something brewing in your heads already?
Sars: There will be a follow-up, just not sure when. We talked a bit with Stawrogin already and we both have some ideas recorded. I was listening to them today and my finger was constantly on the “delete” button (laughs). So, there will be something. In a year, two, five or eight…
Thanks a lot guys for your time!
DEVOTED ART PROPAGANDA – WTZ REISSUES:
https://mailchi.mp/3-nation.com/wtz-deszczdrogasiostry-outnow?e=8fc120ede8
https://www.d-a-p.org/
WTZ ONLINE:
https://wedrowcy-tulacze-zbiegi.bandcamp.com/
https://open.spotify.com/artist/2dKd0pPpF21n7JzaHTsW8n