Before I started trying to put something together for this NCS blog every day (while also dealing with my day job and the rest of my life), I used to spend quality time browsing other metal blogs. Hell, doing that is what inspired me and my two sometimes co-authors to start this thing.
Nowadays, I don’t spend nearly as much time as I’d like on other sites, because I just don’t fucking have the time. The consequence is that when I come across a long piece on another blog, I tend to just wince, make a mental note to come back “when I have time”, and move on to something that’s shorter. (Knowing this you’d think I would be less verbose on the stuff I write for NCS. Yes, you might think that, but then you have to remember that I have a brain the size of a plum that’s been drying in the sun too long.)
Usually, when I make one of those mental notes, I never go back to read the long piece I skipped over. Today, I actually did. I went back to MetalSucks and I read a July 19 posting of an e-mail that MS received from Ryan McKenney, the vocalist for a band that constantly blows me away, Trap Them. He was responding to an earlier post by one of MetalSucks’ more-or-less regular columnists, Sacha Dunable (of the band Intronaut) on the subject of whether corporate-sponsored metal shows are killing the live concert market.
You don’t have to read Dunable’s post to understand McKenney’s. I could just put up a link to McKenney’s post, urge you to go read it (here’s the link), and move on. But that’s really not good enough. For all sorts of reasons, it just fucking blew me away. I think it will hit you pretty fucking hard too. So, after the jump, I’m taking the liberty of just re-printing the whole bleak, brilliant, passionate, eye-opening, thing.
RYAN MCKENNEY’S MESSAGE POSTED BY METALSUCKS ON JULY 19, 2010:
Long time reader, first time caller… that’s how they say it, isn’t it? I’ve gone through great efforts to not invest too much time into internet blogs and messageboards regarding extreme music of any genre. I’m more of what they call a troll, I believe. Except, I never say anything at all, while many will at least chime in once in a while to give an opinion that is consequently ripped apart.
I’d like to at least make an attempt at responding to Sacha Dunable’s write up about corporate fests and whether they are ruining the live concert market. I consider it an important issue on many fronts. The truth is, ask a hundred people their opinion on this, and you’ll probably get a hundred different answers. Unless, of course, you ask the question to people in groups of five or more… if you do that, the odds are only one or two people will give their honest view and then the rest will just say, “Yeah… what he/she said.” I’d like to put my two cents in on the subject. Some may understand what I’m saying, and some may consider me an asshole, which I’m okay with. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard it lately (or even today).
I think Sacha makes a lot of good points. Considering the many differents levels of extreme music that are related to these fests and shows, it’s a lot of ground to cover. Being in a band that has played (and is about to play) these events, I’ve been able to form my own opinion from both sides of the fence. As I write this, I wonder what the “me” of ten to fifteen to twenty years ago would think as I was being opened up daily to new music and new genres, trying to make sense of punk ethics, and which once I believed in and which ones I realized right away were/are a bunch of bullshit.
When Sacha said he’d “…take a fat check from freakin’ Nike,” he actually hit the nail on the head, whether he doubted himself in the next sentence or not. That’s what it has come down to for a lot of us. Being a smaller band that is willing to tour relentlessly is both extremely difficult and, truthfully, a pretty stupid idea, but some of us don’t know any better, or have no other route in life to take. This is what they call being “a glutton for punishment.” The average age of my band is 32 years old. None of us have degrees or trades to fall back on when touring finally hits a brick wall. None of us can look more than six months into the futur… and we accept that. Most of us have been touring since the 90’s with various failure of endeavors. You would think we would have smartened up by now, but it’s not that simple. This feels right.
To expand on what I’m saying: We played roughly 180 shows in 2009, and if we hadn’t taken this certain corporation’s generous offer, we would have eaten more shit than we had already choked down. We opened a tour for one of the most legendary grind bands of all time (THE best, in my opinion) and were payed a pretty small amount. We were first on a five band package… there was never a doubt we’d make peanuts. It didn’t matter… we were on the road for six weeks watching the band play songs I used to listen to while delivering newspapers in seventh grade. But, with the amount of 10+ hour drives in our beautiful fartbox of a van (lovingly referred to as “Big Ben”) that that tour entailed, it was almost monetarily impossible for us to come close to breaking even, let alone make money that would take care of a home life.
We NEEDED this tour. Luckily, this corporation stepped in and made us a small offer. We did something small for them and, in turn, they made the tour attainable for us. What they asked us to do did not, for one second, make me feel like I am compromising any of my integrity. In fact, they told us to go out of our way to not advertise, or even SAY their name.
The same company offered for us to play a free show last summer which, again, helped us immensely in the middle of a tour we were struggling on. Again, they wanted us to not even acknowledge they existed, instead just allowing us to do what we want to do… which is just play a show.
Even with all of this “corporate funding,” we ended the year (after spending half of it going back and forth from coast to coast, over and over and over…) around $5,000 in debt to various areas. The only way being $5,000 in debt is not that big of a deal is if mommy and daddy pay your rent and bills while you’re on vacation (oops… I mean tour). The rest of us come home to roll burritos, work at record stores, flip burgers and walk dogs for “a living”… the rest of us eat shit at home as well as on tour.
You know what makes that shit taste a little better? Someone you don’t know, giving you money to help you do what you want to do. If this makes me a bastard, then give me that fucking crown and put a spotlight on me… I’ll take it all day, week, month, year, decade and century. As long as no one is telling me how to write lyrics and songs and present myself or my band in a live setting, I simply do not care who helps me continue to do this. ( But, since this is the internet, home of the dipshit, some idiot will probably say something along the lines of, “What about the KKK? Or Ann Coulter?” Well, of course, the answer is no to certain pathetics… There. I clarified. Happy?).
All of this leads to my view on how these corporate events affect/effect (grammar nerds… I consider both words to be valid in this sentence… correct me if need be) regular shows and regular tours. This is one of the only parts of Sacha’s entry I disagree with. I don’t think any of these events will ever sway everyday live shows/tours in any way negatively or positively. Yes, we’ve accepted that 90% of the people who’ve heard all of our (by “our,” I mean every band… not just mine) records didn’t pay for them… possibly 95%. Bitter? Maybe. Realistic? Absolutely. To me, I witness live shows being comparable to record sales… times have changed, but most people are still stubborn in seeing the truth of the matter. Everyone still wants something for nothing, regardless of free, corporate sponsored events. They want everything fast, cheap and easy. You can’t have all three.
Fact: American extreme music enthusiasts are spoiled. You know what? Fuck this… Fact: WORLDWIDE extereme music enthusiasts are spoiled. The complaints about prices of shows is, to be blunt, goddamn ridiculous. Punks don’t want to do the math. Hardcore kids are too busy being a caricature of themselves. Metal fans are hiding in their homes, searching the internet for the next kvlt epiphany before dismissing them within months for selling out and recording at a real studio… and they probably go to six shows a year because they get wasted and black out before they get out of the bar to go next door and see the band they want to see “so bad.”.Generalizing, aren’t I? Well, yeah… but if the shoe fits, motherfucker, put it on and shut up.
We’re spoiled. Period. And our rationalizations are shit.
Guys and gals, I’m not trying to be a dick. I’m trying to put this in a way that actually exists.
Tell me if I’m delusional here… I’m sure many of you will.
A five band show. In Europe, this is called a fest. In America, we call this a nightly occurance. I’m sort of joking… sort of not. Anyways, a five band show: two bands on tour, three locals. The two bands drove seven hours to get there. After the show, they have another seven hour drive to the next city/town/whatever. Fourteen hours of driving in any of our sardine buckets on wheels equals to about $300 or more. Just think about that number… also think about TWO bands on tour together. That’s $600 in gas alone for two bands to play a show on tour.
A five band show, and I’d bet my next paycheck (sorry so little… I don’t have much to work with) that you’d hear endless whining if that show was anything over $12. This goes for any show of any genre. The bitching and moaning doesn’t stop… it never, ever will.
Guess what? You want the bottome line? Depending on the show, anything less than $25 is a deal. And ask my wife… my sense of humor sucks, so I’m being quite honest here and there’s not one bit of humor in what I’m saying. I mean this, even though capitalism still somehow fucks me in the mouth each and every day.
And to all of you (okay, again to clarify… not ALL of you) lovers of distortion that are part of the problem, no matter what genre gives you the wet dreams, I really mean this: Fuck you. Fuck your narrow-minded, black-and-white, simpleton opinions.
To expand on this as well: Really, really think about it. Fifteen dollars for a show is unacceptable, yet you’ll drop $18 to sit in an IMAX theatre and jerk off to Avatar or something else along those lines. You’ll get a large popcorn and stuff your fat face and wash it down with a 128 ounce big gulp of Mountain Dew. You’ll drop $30 dollars to see a two or three hour film (and probably buy it for $20 on DVD later), yet spending $15-$25 on admission and, maybe, a shirt or record at a show… an experience that is different every night… spending that $25 is too expensive? It’s compromising your values? Seriously, I can’t say “Fuck you” loud enough right now.
Local punk or hardcore or metal shows with bands on tour are too expensive, but you’ll drop $150 for two tickets in the balcony of a Lady Gaga show because your girlfriend wants to go… you’ll drop $300 for tickets for Opening Day because your boyfriend has gone every year. Comedians charge $75-$150 to have you sit down and laugh for an hour with absolutely no crowd participation. You’ll go to see a flavor-of-the-week hip-hop artist with nothing to say that has gone multi-platinum, pay $40 for admission, and consider this awesome in some sort of fucked up ironic way because it gives you something to tell your friends so that they think you’re crazy or funny.
But $15-$25 extreme music bills are ludicrous. But bands are too greedy.
Somehow, despite all of this, underground music is trying to be forced to stay the same as it was thirty years ago… trying to be forced to stick with the same values. Change is no good, right? We’re not supposed to update ourselves to the reality of modern living, right?
You know who else says expressions like this? Conservatives. Just sayin’.
I don’t expect most people to agree with me, but I’ve got an asshole and I’ve got an opinion, and sometimes they both need to get their shit out. Of course, there are a lot of variables to what I’m saying. Everyday struggle does hinder going to shows all the time, regardless of the cost to get in. And I am also in NO way whatsoever saying every show should be this much. Local bands all driving twenty minutes to play? Hell yeah, that’s an $8-$10 show. Three touring bands that are a draw? Hell NO, that’s not an $8-$10 show… I mean, come ON… is this seriously so far-fetched? But there’s also the spoiled brats that still complain, even though they’re in their twenties and are given a weekly allowance. Or, even worse, free-loading train hoppers that expect to be let into every show without paying a dime (Has my punx membership card been revoked yet? If that last statement didn’t do it, please let me know and I’ll set it on fire myself.) Or, even better… how about there’s less shows every summer? I know it’s a crazy idea, but how about you wait until your band has more than a demo before you head out on a two month, half-booked tour during you college downtime? You know… that way a band that has workhorsed their asses off all year won’t get paid $50 less at a show because you jumped on it last minute and “just need gas money”… that’s not shitty for me to say. It happens way too much… an end result of laziness over effort.
Long winded, huh? I know. It’s a fault of mine… or maybe a subject as important as this needs more than a few lines from me to feel as though I’m truly relaying the direction of my thought process. At least I’m not one of those dicks that would stand there on stage with a feeling of self-importance because I have a microphone and go on a rant about this for fifteen minutes while the rest of the band stares at the floor, hoping I finish soon. That’s what’s great about writing: don’t like what I’m saying? Stop reading. It’s a lot harder to stop listening.
Some of these corporate events keep the bands you love in existence. Truth. Some of these corporate events give us smaller bands a chance to keep going, instead of giving up, in hopes that at some point we may actually turn into a band you love.
To bring up bands such as From Ashes Rise, and what the punx will think of them… well, I don’t really know what to say to that other than: if they don’t like it, fuck ‘em. From Ashes Rise has, in my heart, earned the right to do whatever the hell they want for however long they want to. I’ve been in other bands that have played with them at shitty church rooms in the middle of Bumfuck, Maine in the nineties. I’ve driven ridiculous hours to see them. I literally felt sick to my stomach when they broke up. They’re one of my favorite bands of all time. When they got back together in February, my wife and I bought tickets (without even checking the price) and drove from Seattle down to Portland and saw the reunion show, and that band played with the same intensity they did years ago. They were amazing. From Ashes Rise can play anything and everything they want. They are, and always have been, the real deal. Fuck what the punx think, considering they turn their backs on everything… the diehards are few and far between. I don’t believe in the “punks”… I just believe in punk itself.
No matter what way you look at it, free events, expensive multi-day festivals, etc. included, 99.9999% percent of us bands will never make good money. We have about as much hope as every 350 pound fat ass BlahBlahBlah University offensive linesman that thinks he’s going pro. It just doesn’t happen. It’s a life lottery, with no rhyme or reason as to who comes out on top and why.
So, Sacha is correct: Bands should continue to go on tour and ask for reasonable ticket prices. But, “reasonable” should be less cut and dry, and more blunt reality. There’s two sides: First, fans/enthusiasts need to put their money where their appreciation is. Second, all touring bands need to either accept that they will eat shit until the people that like them finally change their views on show costs, or they can stop touring, continue to write and create their records, and simply play shows whenever the time is right… less stress, less struggle. Either way, they’ll have my respect.
So, what do you want? Do you want to continue to worship at the altar of CGI, of mutli-millionaire cry-baby showboats that switch teams every two years for more money (yet their wives are considered the gold-diggers…), of… hell, everything but this? Just think about it… within the realm of entertainment, there is absolutely NOTHING that comes close to what extreme music encompasses. It is, without question, the most organic, intense and passionate artform that exists, especially when you consider that the average band consists of four or five individuals that somehow have to find common ground to create one fully realized piece of expression in the form of song. On top of that, the translation of song in a live atmosphere literally changes every set, every night.
Why are you trying to lowball something that assaults all five of your senses, something completely unique that will never happen the same way twice?
Do you want to pay the warranted price for passion or do you want to protest and waste your money on other forms of mediocrity?
I’m not going to fuck this up with misdirected values, ethics or priorities. I’m not going to speak for anyone. I’m no decider and I’m no educator or preacher. All I know is that if paying a littile bit more for every show keeps that sweet nectar of live distortion dripping, then sign me up forever.
Order Trap Them’s latest, Filth Rations, from Southern Lord.
Dude, I read that the day it was posted. One of the best, well thought-out,well written post on metal by a musician that I have ever read. I meant to send you the link to it, but life got in the way. He is pretty much spot fucking on with what he wrote. I may not dig his music, but the dude has got some balls to post that. I admire him for his honesty.
Man, I admire it too. Just total raw emotion, born of experience, plus what sounds like some damned irrefutable logic. I’ve always known that it’s tough as nails to pursue this kind of music as a career (which is why we generally don’t spend time slagging bands on this site) but this puts a razor-sharp edge on the point. I’m sitting here enjoying the fruits of other people’s labors, and realizing I really have no fucking idea the kind of sacrifice it takes for those other people to put life in my life.
That was one of the best things I have ever read in my life.
Yeah, it just completely floored me too. I’m still thinking about it. My admiration for bands that are trying to hack out a path for themselves in the extreme metal jungle — and particularly those that have lasted as long as Trap Them — just grew by orders of magnitude. At the same time, I’m really depressed. I suppose this is the fate of most artists in all generations — to watch the great mass of “consumers” throw their money away on bullshit while they struggle to make ends meet. But that doesn’t make it any less fucked up.
I gotta say one more thing, since I was in such a damned hurry too put up this post that I didn’t make it explicit before. It’s rare to find someone with the talent to express even poigniantly heart-felt thoughts in words that match the power of the ideas, and this dude has that talent. There are so many sentences and phrases in what he wrote that are perfectly executed. The expression suits the subject to a tee. No pretension at all, but it’s still a kind of rough, dark poetry.
Agreed with pretty much all he said.
I don’t get out much. I have my reasons. But if bands came through here more often again and they were bands I WANT to see, I’d have no problem dropping 20-30 bucks or more to go see ’em. Maybe a bit more, depends on who it is and what kind of mood I’m in. I was paying that much when I was in high school when bands were coming through and I never really thought I was getting ripped off or paying too much. And this was for two, maybe three bands. I had a good time and got to spend a few hours or so with hundreds/thousands of people there for the same exact reason. And while people seem to bitch and moan about ticket prices as Ryan has said, take a look at some of the biggest names in music, metal or otherwise. Guess what, those tickets sell too and I’m guessing the majority of venues sell out, or come close to it. Yet, some spoiled metalheads bitch about anything over $12 for the bands who “haven’t sold out”?
But times change and there seems to be a strong mentality out there that bands owe their fans, or maybe it’s just me. Where the fuck did this come from? Bands don’t own their fans, fans don’t really owe the bands either. Of course, there’s a bunch of chest thumping, prick waving and finger pointing over piracy, but that’s because so many people higher up are convinced that every download is a lost sale and justifies treating customers like shit, while bands get burned in the crossfire – if they don’t get targeted instead. In the meantime, a lot of bands seem to have accepted defeat regarding album sales and are looking at what else they have available to them to be able to keep going. Of course, not everyone has given up on the album and some go out of their way to give us something that’s something above the rest, and I don’t just mean as far as the music goes. Most look to playing live as the way to be able to keep doing what they love. While there’s nothing wrong with focusing on that side, it’s not that simple.
One thing in Ryan’s post deserves highlighting here, which is quite similar to my thoughts on the music industry as a whole. He mentioned that you should have more than a demo out before committing yourselves to a tour. I think that’s worth keeping in mind. Likewise, I believe every band at least deserves a shot, but that not every band deserves a contract (or in this case, spot on a tour). It may not be quite the same thing, but I do think a band needs to prove itself in one way or another before taking things to the next level, be it part of a tour or a record contract or whatever else. Just because you can play doesn’t mean shit. It’s not enough. If you have a shitty, boring live show, how many people are going to show up, only to leave disappointed? Of course, if you can’t even get your shit together on stage, you need to find this out, preferably long before heading cross country to the opening slot on a night with four other bands. You need to make an impression, especially if people aren’t there to see you. If you fuck up your material, keep arguing or any number of things, your role that night (and probably in the tour as a whole) ends up as a failure. And like Joe Walsh once said, “just because you wrote a song doesn’t mean you can play it”. Good to know if you’re in a band that suffers from this problem or not beforehand.
Now, how many bands out there are even going to be around in five or ten years? Face it, regardless of your passion for music, music is a business. Unless you’re of the tr00 kvlt variety who couldn’t care less if anyone but your (unwilling) neighbors hear your shitty music, I’d think most bands do want to have some degree of success so they can keep going, record every once in a while and play in front of crowds on a regular (or maybe semi-regular basis), although some bands don’t play live and don’t intend to. And that means being able to market yourselves in some way – and be able to be promoted. The business end doesn’t have to be the most important aspect at all times, but you do have to go into it without forgetting that it takes more than an investment of time to make things happen and very few are able to do it on their own. If you don’t know what to do and no one else you’re involved with does, where does that leave you?
Like it or not, bands help the record companies and said companies help the bands. Ideally. But in the real world where there are more and more new bands competing with more and more reunited bands competing with more and more bands that have somehow managed to stick together… it’s oversaturated and bound to crack and break somewhere. Of course, some can and do go at it all alone, but how many can really beat the odds? As Ryan said, it doesn’t really make any sense how some bands make it and some don’t. It’s a gamble these days, with as many bands out there as there, changes in the economy, exposure and ad number of other factors that can sometimes affect a band.
Help may come from elsewhere, such as these sponsored tours. If a company is willing (and able) to help you get on the road to do your thing without interference and otherwise has a hands off approach, where’s the problem? Hell, they’re not even asking the bands to plug merchandise or anything, right? Maybe there are a few changes from putting together the same lineup on your own, but if a sponsor saves you hundreds or thousands per night/week/month, don’t dismiss the idea. You want to play live, right? You don’t want to spend everything you have to your name, right? If the offer is good, consider it.
However, jumping headfirst into a tour just because it’s available doesn’t sound like the wisest thing to do and I’m sure many bands could say the same thing about record contracts. Know your limits, know what you have available to you and what you can get and don’t let yourself get in too deep. You have to take it in steps and see what you can do – and what can be done for you and with you.
Okay, maybe I’ve veered off course a bit (probably more), but I think there’s more to it than just what Ryan wrote. Music is a business, but that is just one part of it. But it’s a part that can’t be ignored, and I think that’s at the heart of what Ryan wrote. As he said, most bands aren’t getting rich off tours and breaking even is sometimes out of reach. There is only so long a band can continue on that kind of grind; the exposure may be beneficial, but if nothing comes of it, why bother?
I hope this made sense. Migraines suck ass, and putting together coherent thoughts into my short story comments is sometimes difficult even when my head isn’t doing blast beats on its own.
Thanks again for another thoughtful and thought-provoking comment (and for quoting Joe Walsh). Particularly impressive that you did this with a migraine.
Seems to me that one source of the problems you and Ryan are identifying is the fact that many bands and many fans are so young that they haven’t yet fully appreciated that music is indeed a business, as well as art, and needs to be understood as such, at least if a musician wants to spend more than a couple years chasing this kind of life. I’m not saying that’s a new phenomenon, but technological advances in just the last decade have made it possible, like never before, for DIY bands to record their own music (and make it sound better) and then get it out into the world for anyone to hear via the webz. In other words, the “barriers to entry” by very young aspiring bands have fallen to the ground.
Then, to compound the economic effects of the exploding supply of new music is the fact that the once-prevailing economic model of music as a business has fallen apart, and nothing sustainable has yet taken its place. At least in the world of metal, most people don’t buy albums and even signing with a label doesn’t mean a whole lot in terms of economic sustenance for the artist. I’m afraid that the net result of these changes is that for 99% of musicians, recording and performing will never be more than a part-time gig, and eventually, for most of them, won’t even be economically feasible on a part-time basis.
Yup. One other thing I’ve noticed is that it’s not hard to find musicians who are in more than one band at the same time. Some of the better known figures out there may be workaholics and aren’t happy unless they’re busy doing something with music, but I think most do it to keep the bills paid and hopefully make enough to put away for later.
Unfortunately, this comes with a price, in that lineup changes are far more frequent and even established, well known bands end up changing labels a few times, sometimes returning once or twice to a label they started with. The business model may be altered, but I still don’t think the album is dead, with metal (of most any kind) is a good example of this. Sure, there are still many issues, not all of them financially, but they’ll be dealt with.
As you said, the cost of making and distributing your own music has gone way down. This isn’t a bad thing, but it’s put so much more out there with everything else – like all the bands who’ve been around five, ten, fifteen years or longer – but there’s still only so much money to go around. Albums still cost around the same, yet the the amount of albums available is so much greater. “Loyal” fans might still be buying everything you put out – and getting ripped off sometimes when a new version comes out a bit later with extra content, yet costs the same – but you cannot rely on your fanbase to be able to get everything you put out if there are five times as many albums out there as when you started out.
I’m not sure if I hit on it with my migraine-fueled rant, but I think the labels need to take a good, hard look at their rosters and see if they can actually support that amount. Labels have to do work too and if they have more bands than their resources allow them to work with (and for), someone’s going to fall through the cracks. Of course, signing a contract doesn’t guarantee anything and you can forge ahead on our own, maybe with a little help along the way, but still “independent”. Thing is, that’s not going to work out for everyone, depending on how much you want to do with the music and how much you’re willing and able to do on your own – in addition to everything else as a band/musician.
One last thing, to bring this back to playing live – you CANNOT play North America and Europe the same way. It’s not going to end well if you try to tour the US with a huge production designed for a European festival setting, while doing the nightly grind in Europe might not work so well for some bands who are used to it on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. But it’s not just a North America/Europe issue; this applies to anywhere. Each region is going to be different and for it to work out, you need to know the works and doesn’t works of where you’re playing.
Good point about the labels. I have zip personal knowledge about this, but I wonder if the business strategy is to over-sign on purpose (kind of like airline overbooking) and then see what takes off. To mix the metaphors, maybe it’s the theory that by making more bets, you increase the odds of a payoff. Of course, if that’s what’s happening, it would tend to spread the per-band marketing and support budget more thinly and further diminish the financial payoff for each band too.
Thanks for pushing me to read this article, it was great. I’m a subscriber to both NO CLEAN SINGING and metalsucks and I thought the exact same thing when I first saw the article (tl;dr). Did anyone else think immediately about the summer slaughter tour? It’s only 20 bucks with 10 bands I’m legitimately stoked about. Add to that the fact that I’ll be going to one of the combo-show dates (Worcester, MA) where you add to the bill all of the bands on the over the limit tour. BUT – the ticket price stays the same! So, I get 20 bands for 20 dollars?? The final cost was actually $26.75 after ticketmaster fees, but I’ll leave that topic alone for now… This seems absolutely ludicrous to me to pay this little for so much good music.
Excellent example on Summer Slaughter — which I’m definitely going to see, and would have paid a lot more to see. I hadn’t heard about that combo package with Over the Limit. That’s ridiculous (I mean ridiculously good, but also just kind of ridiculous). I remember a “10 for $10” hardcore tour last summer with Poison the Well, Madball, Terror, and 7 more bands. “10 for $10” was actually the name of the tour.